Head of Entertainment, Warner Bros Australia - Caroline Swift

In this episode, Hayley Ferguson is joined by the Head of Entertainment at Warner Bros. Discovery Australia - Caroline Swift. Spence as she more commonly know as, has built an impressive career in television, overseeing a massive slate of prime-time formats including The Bachelor Franchise, FBOY Island and Selling Houses Australia. Caroline share how her early beginnings in production management underpins her work in editorial, the lessons she learnt from the most challenging experiences in TV, and, what it actually takes to pitch and sell a show in today's highly competitive, fragmented market.

CREDITS:
Host and Producer: Hayley Ferguson

ABOUT THE HOST:

Beyond Reality is hosted by television producer Hayley Ferguson. Over the past decade, Hayley has worked across many of Australia's biggest unscripted series, including Australian Survivor, Dancing with the Stars, Gogglebox, Big Brother and I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi, I'm Helly Ferguson, and this is Beyond Reality, the podcast where I chat with the people behind the TV shows you love. In this episode, I'm joined by head of entertainment at Warner Brothers Discovery Australia, Caroline Swift. Spence, as she's more commonly known, has built an impressive career in television, overseeing a massive slate of primetime formats including the Bachelor franchise, Floyd Island, and Selling Houses Australia. Caroline shares how her early beginnings in production management underpins her work in editorial, the lessons she learnt from the most challenging experiences in TV and what it actually takes to pitch and sell a show in today's highly competitive, fragmented market.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

You are so passionate and so enthusiastic about your project and you know it inside out. If you can transfer that enthusiasm over to the other person, half of the job is done. You might not get the commission, but bloody hell they've had a good time hearing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Hi, Spence.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Hello, lovely one. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I'm good, thank you. I mean, it feels funny calling you Spence, I guess, because we haven't actually worked together, but that's what everyone calls you.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

So we're rolling with that. Yeah, go on, do it. My government name is uh only ever evoked by family at kind of you know key tense moments. So yeah, when you're in trouble. Correct. Spence, it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Well, I'm so excited to have you here to chat to me today. You have had a huge career in television. So I'm really excited to get into your career and talk TV with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Thank you. It's an honor and a privilege to be asked, darling. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Well, you are obviously the head of entertainment at Warner Brothers Australia. Can you tell me a little bit about what that actually means and what your job involves?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

So I creatively lead, funnily enough, the entertainment slate, but that's kind of a very broad remit. It's more our formatted shows that I look after. Um so that's everything from Selling Houses Australia, which is obviously a more of a factual kind of slash lifestyle type show, to the Bachelor franchise and kind of everything in between. I would say on the macro level, I kind of creatively lead, you know, lead those shows. But obviously in this day and age, and it's as much about leading it creatively and leading it commercially as well, you know, and making sure that we are delivering to our clients exactly what we've sold to them, making sure that we're coming in on budget and schedule, as well as doing the best storytelling and best kind of creative vision that we can achieve. So I think if someone asks me what do I do for a living, I try and create an environment where everybody can do their best work. That's what I try and do.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, wow, it's obviously a huge job. And you've mentioned a couple of formats there. Obviously, the Bachelor franchise selling houses Australia. Can you talk through some of the other formats that you look after?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Well, I've been at Warner's, I've done Celebrity Apprentice, one of my personal favourites, F Boy Island. Mine too. Back in time for dinner for the ABC, which was fascinating because I, you know, it was a living history format, which I'd never done before. And I also learned things about Australia and our history and culture that I, you know, didn't know, which I absolutely loved. Snackmasters, a food show that, you know, where you become sort of an instant expert on how some of the most iconic snacks in Australia have come about, you know, both how they're made but also how they've been marketed, which I loved. So yeah, so probably some of the key ones that that come to mind over the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, I love how diverse that slate is. There's so many different kinds of shows in there on all ends of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, there is. And you've got to kind of shape shift, I think. One of the things I love the most is sort of inside one day, if you're going from kind of one show, like at the moment, you know, I've got selling houses shooting and about to, you know, start screening episodes, and I'm right in the thick of screenings for Golden Bachelor. So what I love is that kind of shape shifting where you'll be in a story meeting for an upcoming episode for selling houses, where you're talking about property prices in Launceston and how do we demonstrate visually a really exciting way that, you know, to tell the story about why these particular contributors can't sell their house and how the real estate market has changed in this sort of, you know, town in Tasmania versus the mainland. And then I'll literally walk out of that into a screening for Golden Bachelor where we're trying to, you know, I don't know, climb through a story about should that person be having that response to that person saying that about this? And do I really believe that love story there? So I love the the changing atmospherics that can happen from literally one minute to the next.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess in your role, I mean, how much is it working on development versus you know getting out on set and also watching screenings?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I do a lot of all of those things. So our development is run by a fantastic guy called James Collins, and he is the day-to-day kind of cultface of our development push and slate, but we we work collectively together. So Johnny, who looks after originals here and I, we feed into the development process, and both of us pitch the shows that would end up on our slate. So I do quite a lot of stuff in development. I love that part of the process, and I think it's a really key part of the business that I think any producer should really deeply understand. Uh, I became a much better show runner when I understood development more deeply. I probably spend 20% of my week on development stuff, and then the the the other 80% split across shows that are either in pre-production, shoot, or post, or you know, in any of those sort of areas. For big shows, I'm out on the shoot a lot, you know. So for something like Golden Bachelor, I'm there more often than I'm not on the shoots. For something like selling houses, very rarely out in the field because of the nature of those style of shoots. For screenings, I watch everything, everything that sits on my slate, I've watched at least four times before it goes to air.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Wow. That is just such a huge job and encompasses so many different aspects. And I guess you have to kind of, you know, put on a different hat every time you walk into a different room. So I think that's fascinating. And I would love to go back now to where it all began and see how you got to this point to be able to do the job that you do now. To kick us off, the question I always like to ask is Did you always want to work in TV?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Not really. So I am third generation television. My grandfather was in TV and my dad was in TV. So I grew up literally in the thick of it. And I didn't really want to. No, I I sort of was in when I was in year 12, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Can I ask what your your grandfather and your dad did in television?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

So my grandfather was Norman Spencer, so he discovered Graham Kennedy and um was a big executive in GTV 9 in Melbourne. And one of my the stories that I love the most about my I suppose origin story in TV is that my uh grandfather directed the very first episode of In Melbourne Tonight, and my dad directed the very last episode of In Melbourne Tonight. So the Wow. Yeah, so so uh my uh so my grandfather basically discovered um uh Graeme Kennedy and ran GTV kind of creatively in Melbourne for many years, and then my dad has done lots of stuff, so he started as a cameraman. We started in the mail room actually at GTV and then became a cameraman and he was the youngest director in GTV's history, and then was a head of entertainment for Grundy's, programmer at the ABC, CEO of Southern Star. Yeah, he's done he did he did lots of stuff and then retired, I think about 15 years ago or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah. And so even though you had this family connection uh to television, it was in your blood, you initially weren't interested in working in television.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Really, no, and I don't I look, I don't think it was a conscious thought at the time, but I'm a Nepo baby squared, you know what I mean? So, you know, I'm doubled down on the Nepo baby. I think part of the reason that I was probably a little bit reluctant might have been that back in the day, and we're talking a very long time ago because I'm a very old woman, you had to work five times as hard to be considered half as good. It wasn't considered a benefit, you know what I mean, to come in with any history or anything like that. And I really I've I very much felt it in the first five to eight years of my career. Yeah, it certainly wasn't it wasn't something that I went out went around advertising. So I think that was part of the reason that I wasn't really hell-bent on getting into the industry, but I finished year 12 on a so I kind of came to the end of, you know, did my HSC and and I was like, I don't want to go to university. Like, fuck, I couldn't bear the thought of I just want to work, I just want to earn money, I just want to work. And uh so I said to my dad, look, you know, I maybe I'll just get a job for a couple of years doing something. And he gave me a um a a full scat piece of paper with his tortured handwriting that had a list of about 25 people's names and numbers on it, and I spent a Thursday ringing on the landline uh all of these numbers, and one of them was a guy called Chris McMillan, who was running global television at the time, which was in the old Channel 10 building at North Ride. And I got a call from Chris's EA the next day, and uh, you know, come in for an interview. We've got, you know, a job going where you do a bit of reception work, you do a bit of PAing, you do a little bit of studio assistant work. It's kind of like a dog's body roll, you know. And I went into that interview and I started like a week later. So while everyone else went on schoolies, I kind of started in TV and I just worked my way up from there, really. And I uh had that job for I don't know, God, a few months, and then I became a producer's assistant. And just by default, I kind of fell into the more logistical kind of coordination sort of you know side of things, and I did that for like a while. I I worked there, I went and worked at a very small production company that was making high-end kind of commercials. I did that for a while, and then I landed at Beyond Productions and was a production manager there for quite a while. I was working with uh Mandy Roberts, who's now head of production at Channel 7, and Caroline Ortson, who's the um EVP of production at Beyond there now. And then I left Beyond to go and go over to New Zealand. I think I was the only Australian in in in the during that decade at least, who was kind of going over to work in New Zealand instead of people coming from New Zealand to come over from a cover here. So I've got a job as a head of production at NH ⁇ Z, which was a big factual production company in Dunedin of all places, that was at that point owned by Fox Studios, so was doing lots and lots of like hundreds of hours of uh factual during the during peak cable, basically. So Nat Geo and Discovery Channels and all that kind of stuff, which and it was bloody great, actually. It was fantastic, and I I did that for a few years and worked under an amazing man called Michael Steadman, who was the managing director of NHNZ, who taught me an enormous amount. I've been very lucky to have some really great mentors who've really, really helped me, and he was one of them. And I loved working for him, really clever guy. And then I came back.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

So when you started and you were working at global television, you got your first taste of television. Did you realize then this is where you wanted to be?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, it was almost immediate, I think. And I think the the the sense of camaraderie, which I've never not felt. One of the reasons I keep loving this business is that sense of it's you know, you kind of go cr go to creative war, you know, with everyone. It's just such a feeling of being bonded to your fellow workmates. And I think that's what I responded to this that that that sense. But yeah, pretty much by I think my the end of my first week, I was like, I I've found my tribe, you know, and and and this is this is where I want to be and this is what I want to do. Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

I love that. And I guess in doing that, you worked your way up in the production side of things. So working as a production manager for Beyond Productions, and then obviously going on to head up production at NHNZ. So can you tell me about those early years in your career and what kind of drew you to the production side of things? Because I guess what you're doing now and what you've spent a lot of your later career doing has been the editorial side.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Uh, nothing really drew me to the production side, to be honest, Hailey. It I fell into it. I genuinely fell into it. I kind of got this sort of first sort of job at Global TV that that encompassed, you know, very junior kind of production things. Like I was picking up cigarette butts off the studio floor as part of my first job. Like it was, I literally worked my way up from the bottom. But it it just sort of started that I had that job and then I was kind of okay at it, I suppose. And then I I was given more responsibility and I continued not to cock it up and be okay at it, and then then I got the job at Beyond. You know, and we're talking back in the day where, you know, I was looking after multiple, multiple shows, and I got a really broad view of a lot of different shows. It's become highly specialized now. Back in the day when I was doing it, it wasn't as highly specialized. So I was really very lucky that I got to do, you know, all types of different shows versus I think what happens now, which is you're a big entertainment production manager, and that's kind of all you do, or you do factual and that's all you do. Well, back in the olden days, that wasn't it wasn't as rigid as it is now. But yeah, I didn't, it's nothing drew me to it, but I've got to say it gives you an extraordinary uh foundation to be a creative. I think when you understand that part of the business and you can read a budget properly, you can create a budget if you want to, you know, if you need to. You can do a schedule, you can do a call sheet. They weren't wasted years, put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

That's really interesting, having that foundation in the production side of things, which is obviously more logistical, more focused on the the budget and whatnot. So, what motivated you to go into editorial or how did that transition happen?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

By the time that I decided that I needed to make a change, I'd been working in TV for God, nearly 15 years, you know. So, you know, from I got into television at 17 and I came back from New Zealand in 31 or 32, I think I was. So I'd kind of reached and I don't want this to sound arrogant because I'm just I'd sort of got I'd done everything that I could do, you know, and I had been fortunate enough in New Zealand because of the nature of the role that I had, that I'd been exposed to working with some very generous showrunners and and just very generous human beings who had the generosity of spirit to show me that everybody working in this business, regardless of what role you feel, is creative. And I think that that was the first time that anybody had told me that. You know, I'd I'd I'd grown I'd grown up in the business being told that I was the opposite of creative and that you know all I could do was, you know, run a budget and you know that kind of stuff. So I'd I had quite a for a long time I had quite an inferiority complex, to be honest. But then I met these very generous people, and Michael Steadman, who was my boss at the time, was one of them, who really opened my eyes to the fact that, you know, you don't have to just be one thing or the other, you know, they're not mutually exclusive. And so I took the opportunity when I decided I wanted to come home from New Zealand, when that was a that was just I, you know, I'd been there for three or four years and you know, I just wanted to come home. I kind of went, well, it's sort of now and ever spence, you know. It's you can you can do it now or you can continue doing what you're doing, and then if you don't, if you get frustrated and feel resentful, then you just need to suck it up sunshine and move on. So I made the decision to radically, I didn't see it that way at the time, but now I look back on it in reflection, I go, Jesus, I was quite brave, wasn't I? Um I didn't feel that way at the time though. I just came back and I was like, okay, I'm gonna be a producer. And look, it was pretty hard. Like I didn't work full-time for quite a few months because a lot of people were, you know, offering only offering me, you know, line producer roles or production executive roles. So I really had to stick to my guns and go, no, no, no, I'm gonna be a producer. And after about a few months and dwindling finances, and I was like, God, I'm gonna have to do something about this. I got a phone call from Richie Campbell, who was working at Free Manor with Paul Franklin at the time, and Project Runway Series 1 had just been commissioned out of Melbourne, and they needed a challenge producer, which was I think like the perfect job for what I needed because you've got to be somewhat able to pull shit together as a challenge producer, but equally, it's one of the most creative jobs on any reality show. And Richard took a pun on me, you know, and and it was quite the roll of the dice. Like I think back now, going, would I employ someone as a challenge producer who'd never been a producer before on any of my shows? And I think about it and I go, fuck, I don't know if I would, you know what I mean. So it was a real roll of the dice, but I absolutely saw what an extraordinary opportunity it was for me. So I went out of Melbourne and I worked my absolute ass off. And and from there, I I kind of you just you just need one show, you just need one person to to to show faith in you, and then it's up to you. And I was very fortunate that I had someone who did that, and and that's how it all came about.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah, that's amazing. I speak to so many people, and that's kind of what happens. It's like you need someone to take a chance and believe in you often. And I guess having that challenge producer role being that it is so creative, so you got to showcase your creative abilities, but then also you could back it up by having the logistics and planning aspects that you know, you'd built a reputation in production with that. So you had all those skills.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, because the challenge department, I think, on any reality show touches every department. You're dealing with the art department, you're dealing with director and camera, you're dealing with production very closely. You know, because of my background in production, all of those departments I wasn't in awe of. I dealt with them as a production manager. I knew how they worked, I knew what information they needed, you know, in order to be able to function. So I was, you know, just for I was just very fortunate, Haley. I was very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

And I guess going from that first challenge producer role, what were kind of the you know, most pivotal moments that led you to becoming an executive producer and how long did that process take?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Look, a lot of it is luck and timing, you know, and I know that's a very unfashionable thing to say, and you know, everyone wants, you know, to kind of think that it's your own, you know, skills and talent. And yeah, yes, you can't be an idiot, you know what I mean, to to to to do these sort of things. But I I put a lot of emphasis on how lucky I was and that I was in the right place at the right time, and I was fortunate enough to meet people who helped me. Like they they helped, they helped, they actively helped me, you know. And so without that, I wouldn't be sitting here having this con you wouldn't be interested in talking to me because I wouldn't have this job without the a lot of people who really helped me. Some of the pivotal moments during that time. Um, Paul Franklin had an enormous influence on my creative life because he pushed me really hard. He showed me that to be the best creative that you can be, you can't take your first idea. You've got to really push the boundaries. And and I watched him in action doing that, and he pushed me enormously on Rumway. And then I was fortunate enough again to work with him on Loser and on Master Chef, where he continued to have faith in me and continued to push me. So I think that that philosophy of kind of just asking the very simple question, is that your best idea? And it's such a simple question, but it can unpack and motivate people to really want to dive deeper and give you more, you know. So I think that that was one of the pivotal moments for me. How long did it take from that show to to EPing? About five or six years, maybe. And you know, I challenge produced, I senior story produced, I series produced, and then EP'd. And I think that mix of skills of having done challenge producing, but also been in the story team. I also ran the control room in MasterChef, produced talent, wrote scripts, did you know that kind of stuff, all of those things, again, very incredibly lucky to have landed those jobs, which I think gave me, I would hope, um, a well-rounded view of of how to of how to showrun. At the end of the day, showrunning, you know, you can be the most creative person in the world. If you can't communicate your vision clearly, it doesn't matter how creative you are. Most of this job is being able to communicate clearly and widely and be decisive, and that's how you get people to enact your vision.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

And what was your first executive producer role? What show were you working on? Master Chef.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, yeah. So again, I was really very fortunate to work with the origin team, you know, um, who launched it, which was obviously Paul and Judy and John O, and came in on that first season running the control room, and and then season two, I series produced, and then season I was the EP. And uh what is it? How would you describe exhilarating? I would describe those years. Absolutely exhilarating. You know, to work on something that was so such a juggernaut, had such an impact on people's lives, not just the people who worked on it and were featured on it, but the people who, you know, the audience. And it was a cultural moment, continues to be a cultural moment. And I absolutely loved every bloody second of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Yeah, I mean, at that time, there was like a food revolution because of Master Chef.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

It was extraordinary, Hailey, actually. I kind of think back now and go, good God. Like the those boys were the most famous people in Australia at one point, you know, and you would go out with them and they would be mobbed like they were, I don't know, like Mr. Beast is now, you know what I mean? Like it was just, it was amazing. And, you know, to to work with people who are at the top of their game is such a pleasure. And it took everyone by surprise. I don't think anyone was sitting there, you know, in season one going, wow, this is going to be the biggest thing that, you know, Australia's ever seen. But with that comes responsibility, you know, and and I I I think the that when we did season three, you know, season one was obviously, you know, I think I think one in four people had watched the finale. Season two, they moved the the Prime Minister's debate, you know, because the finale was on the same night. So you go into season three going, holy shit, how can we beat this, you know? But it was a a privilege to work on that show. And uh, and I and I still think that you know, some of the the best work that I've done was was inside that the inside that franchise.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

What was it like working with Matt, Gary, and George? I mean, they were obviously very accomplished in their own right, but you were essentially turning them into superstars. What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Do you know what, Haley? I think that ignorance was bliss at the at the start of the process because for me, I had never, and no one really had, to be honest. To be fair, no one really had kind of taken sort of people who were at to you to use your words, top of their game in one field and tried to make them into. Sure, there'd been lifestyle programs where you'd taken a gardener, like on Better Homes and Gardens, and gone, here's a gardener, we're gonna make you into a lifestyle host. But it was much bigger and much huger and and massiver than that, you know. So it hadn't really been done before that, you know, take three chefs and turn them into five night-a-week superstars that were gonna be on air for five months of the year. So at that point, if I'd known the enormity of it, I think I would have been too terrified to do it. But as I said, ignorance was bliss at that point. The key thing really was to not turn them into television hosts, to be able to keep the essence of who they were and why they had been cast, keep them as much as they were, and just be able to make them slightly more effective communicators. That was really all it was.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

It's just amazing that you were there for the beginnings of all that. And it must have been amazing to step up on a show that you'd been working on since the beginning as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah, that's a really beautiful thing to do, actually, to be able to start at a at a lower level, you know, on a on a show and be able to, I suppose, evolve with it actually. Have the have the um ability to grow up with it. I I grew up with MasterChef professionally, you know, and yeah, and it was, it was a it was a real it was a real privilege, and it allowed me, I think, to have the confidence to to do some of the things that we did in season three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah. I want to get to the next stage of your career. Obviously, you sort of spent the next few years executive producing on shows like Recipe to Riches, Farmer Wants a Wife, um, shows like that. And then you stepped into the role of director of development at Fremantlemedia Australia. Can you tell me about that opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

It came out of nowhere. So there's a funny story around it, actually. I was oblivious to anything that was really going on in regards to how the company was kind of I was oblivious to what happened outside of my own shows, which is what you should be when you're a showrunner. I was just like, I just do my shows, they're my own little mini mini ecosystem, because they're like little mini companies, aren't they? Shows, you know. And Ian Hogg, who was uh the CEO of Fremantle, invited me out for dinner one night with a guy called Rob Clark. And uh and I was like, didn't really know who Rob Clark was, didn't really know why I was being invited out for this dinner, and we go out for this lovely dinner down to Balmoral. Turns out that Rob was the global head of development and sat on the board for Fremantle, and he's a friend to this day, a wonderful, wonderful man, incredibly funny, incredibly creative, incredibly uh impressive man. And we're having this lovely dinner. I've got no idea why I'm there, and I'm just having a lovely time. Anyway, a couple of weeks later, Hoggy kind of has a meeting with me and says, I want to make you the director of development. I was like, what? What does that even mean? You know, and I was like, okay, great, thinking, oh god, this will be easy compared to showrunning. Little did I know. One of the best things I ever did. Um, but absolutely terrifying. For the first 18 months, I was terrified. You know, I had no real idea what I was doing. With the arrogance of only a showrunner, I thought it was, oh God, how hard can development be for God's sake? You know what I mean? But it is the unsung workman, it's like it is it's the unsung role of television or or any content really, you know, whether it's television or movies or I can if you're trying to come up with ideas for your buddy Instagram reel, it's it's it is incredibly difficult. And I've never really pitched before. I'd kind of talked through the creative of my own shows as a showrunner, but that's different. Somebody's already bought the show, you know what I mean? So they've already, they're already largely engaged, you know, compared to going in and trying to get someone to buy something. Yeah, I was a black I was a nervous wreck for 18 months. I would be physically ill before every pitch. I'd be, oh god, I'd, you know, the performance that I used to carry on with.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

I guess in a nutshell, what is the role of a director of development?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

So you are effectively responsible for bringing in new business. That's the macro kind of job description. What it means in reality is you have to craft a and put together a development slate of project. You've got to identify where the need is across your client base and across their schedules or across what their you know acquisitions are, everything. From that, create a slate that exploits your back catalogue as much as possible, you know, the new pipeline plus new ideas, develop them up, create all the assets for pitching, and then try and sell them. And then try and smooth the when when you've sold them, then try and lube them up into production. So actually what you sold is reflective of what gets made. Yeah, it's a hard job.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, I mean, you did that for, I mean, was it six or seven years at free man?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, six or seven years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

But by the end of it, I guess you you were a nervous wreck for the first 18 months. But but what happened after that? You obviously have some passion for development.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, I love development. Two things kind of changed for me, actually. Again, I was really fortunate to meet someone who changed my internal mental landscape around development. Uh, I went to a development workshop in London, and one of the speakers there was a guy who basically taught pitching for a living. And one of there was something that he said in like we did a day and a half, he was a three-day development workshop. I think he did a whole day with us. And there was two things that he said that literally was like a light bulb going off in my head. The first thing that he said was around how selfish it is and inward looking it is to be nervous. People are giving up an hour of their time inside their day to sit and hear your pitch. You go in and you're nervous, and actually, all you're doing is you're inward looking. All you're doing is focusing on how you're feeling. And that's an incredibly selfish way to approach a pitch when people are sitting there and having given up an hour of their time. That really resonated for me because when you are nervous, you are inward looking and you're not thinking about your audience. You're actually thinking about your fucking self. And that's the worst, that's the worst state to pitch in. So that really was a light bulb moment for me. And I was like, right, I've got to stop that because of the selfishness of it. The second thing he said was that to pitch well, it is simply a transfer of enthusiasm from one person to the other. And that also just stayed with me. If you can manage that transfer, if you are so passionate and so enthusiastic about your project and you know it inside out, if you can transfer that enthusiasm over to the other person, half of the job is done. You might not get the commission, but bloody hell, they've had a good time hearing it. You know what I mean? And that's often all you need to do. So that's kind of what shifted my thinking and why I kind of went from going, oh my god, this is this is awful. I can't live like this anymore, to actually, I'm now loving it and now I really enjoy it. And I was just again, just fortunate. Rob Clark mentored me enormously. Hoggy believed in me and backed me when a lot of people probably wouldn't have. Um, and I just learned so much. I think the overarching thing that I learned in development is is again uh the simplification of communication, both from how you interact with other people and how you lead people, but also how you, you know, simplify your messaging and your creative messaging, you know, uh it becomes far more powerful when you can boil it down just to its to its basics and pitching constantly uh really helps you do that. When you're pitching as much as I did, it becomes like a habit, you know. So I, you know, and I think the best thing that I got out of it is that I can look at a deck now and I can really, you know, whereas when I started doing the job, I was like, oh god, I just get completely, you know, go down a rabbit hole. Now I can, you know, really look at a deck and and really work it efficiently and and reasonably transparently. So I've been very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

I mean, I love that idea of the transfer of enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

To skip ahead a little bit, I mean, I guess after, you know, six years with Fremantle Media in that role, you then went back to executive producing and you're heading up shows like Celebrity Apprentice, Selling Houses, Snack Masters. After going back into the field again and heading up these shows, you took on the role of head of entertainment at Warner Brothers Australia, the role that you're currently in now. I guess. Can you talk to me about, you know, landing in that job?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Again, I I hate to sound like a broken record, Haile. Lucky, very, very lucky. And timing, I think, to a certain extent. I had come in to Warner's initially as a as a supervising EP, but I was back on the tools doing Celebrity Apprentice, as you pointed out, which was Warner's first commission for nine that they'd ever had. And uh, and I was loving being back on the tools actually, because I love showrunning, I love it. And um so I did that and you know, I was doing my thing and all that kind of stuff. And then uh, as I said, being in the right time at the right place, I think. Michael, who's my current uh boss, came to me and and said, What do you want to do with your career? And um, I was like, Oh, um I said, Look, I you know, I I I don't really know, but I really I love you know working with creative people and I love creating a space and an environment where they can do their best work, and that's kind of where I kind of want to want to land, really, and what I want to do. And and so I was just very lucky that he um at that point, you know, that goes back to the timing thing, that the timing was right, and he was creating that role, and and I and he asked me to do it, you know. So that's how I find myself in this job, you know. Again, I've I've been I just when I think back on it, Hayley. I've kind of like looking at all the kind of fortuitous kind of where the universe lined up for me, I've just been fucking lucky, mate.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

I mean, you call it lucky, but obviously to have so many people that believe in you and want to give you these opportunities. I mean, just talking about your career, you've earned every opportunity that you've had, and every single role that you've done, it feels like has led you to the next opportunity and equipped you to be able to do it well. So you're being very humble about it though.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

You're very kind, but I think there's there's also times too where you, you know, the everything that I've done, everything that I have done has kind of led to this point. And I've never, you know, sometimes you've got to go backwards or sideways to move ahead. And and I think that, you know, I know when I, you know, spent when I took the development job and you know did it for as long as I did, that a lot of people were like, oh, well, you know, you're just never gonna be able to showrun again, you know, and like and but I think, yeah, every everything I've done has led to this point, and I and it's like collecting collecting experiences and collecting where and where you've watched so many things unfold and often terri terrible thing. You know, I've I've I've you know had to navigate myself through some really tough times, you know, where and that's the where I've learned the most. But look, I I I can't I cannot underestimate that um yeah, time timing and luck in this business is is often undersold as one of the reasons that you know good things happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

You talk about the hard times. I guess what is the biggest challenge that you faced on set, you know, near disasters that you've had to navigate and how have you dealt with it?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

I actually find disasters during shoots very invigorating. You know, I have been incredibly fortunate that I've never had a a situation where I've had to deal with anybody nearly dying or or anything like that. I've been really lucky. Um, because I know some showrunners have had to go through that and I don't quite know how I I'd recover from that. So I find crisis management on shoots quite exhilarating because often it's just constant problem solving, usually to do with the fact that you know you don't have enough time or money to achieve what you want to achieve. And you're also dealing with human beings as your cast who are imperfect and complex creatures. And how do you work around trying to get them to do the stuff that they don't really want to do? But you know, you've got to kind of talk them into it. So there's no real crisis that I go, God, that was you know on the shoot. I'll tell you, one of the hardest periods of my life was when I was running Development Fremantle, and I didn't get it, I I didn't sell a show for nearly 18 months alien. Like it was that was terrible. Like that was the worst, one of the worst periods of my life, you know. And it's, you know, when there was everyone going, oh, it's not really your fault, it's the state of the market. And it was my fault. I wasn't pitching well enough, I wasn't identifying shows well enough. I wasn't, you know, so you know, that was probably the biggest crisis that I've had to navigate. Because when you're the person who's responsible for bringing in revenue and you haven't brought in any new reven any new revenue for 18 months, you're not going home feeling good about yourself, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Going back, what was that first show that you sold?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

So I think the first thing that I sold after that, um, after that dry patch was um, oh god, it was an old bloody back catalogue show that an I saw an old show in Fremantle's back catalogue that was called Escape to the Country, that was made by Boundless, which was one of our UK labels, which was a lovely show. The clue's in the title, it was people who were out house hunting in the country to, you know, have their kind of tree change type thing that was made for I think BBC Two, and I think they did like something like 20 episodes a year. We sold 65 episodes to the ABC and called it Escape from the City, and everyone thought we were absolutely insane that we were going to be able to effectively make that many episodes in one go. And but we did, and you know, there was a lot of naysayers, a lot of people going, you can't do it, and you can't do it. But it broke the drought, and uh, and it was great to be able to take something that was that no that had been overlooked in the catalogue and you know, be able to reinvent it and and put it as a a strict Monday to Friday and like on stuff. So that was that was good. What else have I been really proud of? Um oh look, I you know, I'll always be I'll always be proud of F Boyle Island just because I think that you know, I know a lot of people throw shade on it and kind of think it's ridiculous and you know that kind of thing, but um I think it was uh you know, I think it was a brilliant show. Uh I think it it no more ridiculous than any other dating show out there, and um I think a lot more honest in its approach to uh modern day young women's problems. And I adored working with Abby and you know, I think we the I think the casting was great, and I think we I think we did a really world-class iteration of that format that rivaled the American version. So very proud of that.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was ridiculous, but it knew what it was. You have been in this business for such a long time. How has the process of pitching evolved and changed with the emergence of streamers?

SPEAKER_00 40:21

By virtue of the fact that with streamers you are not necessarily solving a programming slot. And I think that's the biggest change, probably. So when there was no streamers, development and pitching would largely be a job of solving slot problems. So you would identify that 10 was having some issues on a Wednesday night at 7:30, or this particular franchise was coming to the natural end of its, you know, kind of lifespan, and it was taking up Sunday to Tuesday slot. So broadly speaking, before streaming, you were solving your problem solver, and you and the and the problem you were solving was slot weaknesses. With streaming, the challenge is different. You're trying to do usually one of two things. You're trying to get subscribers, so you're trying to get people to pay for something behind a paywall, or you are trying to keep them behind the paywall, and that kind of shifts the pitch into something that's much more amorphous, you know what I mean? It's a much, it's a much, it's a hard, it's a bit like trying to grab air, you know what I mean? So it's it's it's it's a little bit harder, I think. You know, there'll be other people who disagree with me, but I think it's harder.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Yeah, I guess at the moment, what trends are you seeing in unscripted television and and what excites you about the industry going forward?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Look, I think one of the biggest trends that we're seeing, I personally think, in in non-scripted is the rise of conflicttainment, which is you know exactly that, watching people fight, you know, and obviously MAFS does it extremely well, the Housewives franchise does it extremely well. You know, and I think when conflict is earned, when you feel invested in the characters and you understand their relationships and the and therefore you buy into the conflict, I think fucking great, you know, whatever. You know, I certainly have seen with you know what what we're looking at with Golden Bachelor this year that, you know, a little bit of spice in that regard is um is always a good thing. So I think that's a definite trend in non-scripted. Oh, I think we're in a really challenging time. So I really, really do. And I think that while that is a bit scary, I do think that it offers up a lot of opportunity. I'm not too sure what those opportunities are at the moment. I don't think anyone can say with any real authority what they are. Right now, I think that the fact that Australians are clearly demonstrating that they want to watch Australian stories in whatever way they come, you know, and in whatever form they come, be it non-scripted, scripted, lifestyle, reality, factual entertainment, whatever it is, I still feel very buoyant that all of the, you know, shows that largely, you know, certainly on broadcast but also streaming, you know, the Australian voices are still at the top of the pile, thank God. So I feel buoyant about that. How this business looks in 10 years as an as an industry, I think is going to be vastly different. But I don't I don't know what that is. I think that we are still operating off a model that is quite an old model, you know. Um, and uh you look back 10 years ago, it was the same as it is now. You look back another 10 years, it was the same as it is now. I don't think throwing forward, I think if if I'm still fortunate enough to be working in this business in 10 years, I don't think it's gonna look like this. But I I can't crystal ball because I I just I think there's gonna be a lot of disruption before it settles down.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, absolutely. It is a really tough time for everyone. But hopefully, like you said, that the there is opportunity. And things will change, but hopefully there's opportunity in that and there'll be some positive change.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

At the end of the day, all we're doing is telling stories. And we're, you know, and human beings love stories so much that we tell them to ourselves in our sleep, you know, by virtue of dreaming, you know. That's how much we love stories. We're 24-7 story, you know, and asleep or awake, that's what we do. And I think that that means that if you are a storyteller, you're gonna be absolutely fine. It's just what does the platform look like that you're gonna be telling them on, and what is the business model that you'll be making them in? That's really all it is.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

I have one more question before we get to the quick fire questions. I guess if someone has an idea for a television show that they're convinced that it should be on television, uh, needs to be made, what's your best piece of advice and how do you differentiate a good show from a show that's great and a show that's gonna sell?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

The one question that people don't ask themselves enough is why? Simply why. Why is this show going to find eyeballs that will come to it? If you cannot answer that question coherently and quickly, then you've got some work to do. And then I think that you need to identify the purpose or the telos of that show, um, which is linked to the why. So if you say, look at some of the uh, I'll use Married at first sight as a probably the best example. That's really a show about hope, you know, it's the most basic. So being able to identify what really is your show about, what's its purpose, again, really important. I get so many pitches that are obsessed with the format and like and all the format mechanics and all these pages about, and then this happens and then this happens, but there's no why and what is the purpose of this show, you know. The other thing that people always forget, please tell me straight up what's the genre and how many episodes and how long are you pitching? I know it sounds like such a small thing, but you need to go and think my show is called Traders, it's 10 one hours in the reality genre. First up, you know, I mean it's like okay, great. I'm now like in that mode, you know. Next thing off that is closing the title. The show is about how human beings will deceive each other and can they do it well enough that they can fake it all the way through? You know, like that's not a great pitch, but that's the second thing you need to say. Give me that line, you know? Really, in the first instance, the format's kind of the least of the least interesting thing to me.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So it's like get to the point.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Get to the point. Tell me more. Get me intrigued. What's the book? What's the fucking promo gonna be? The promo's not gonna be the format. It's not gonna be then they did this and then they did this. The promo's gonna be, you know, hope, hero creation, um, you know, uh trying to overcome uh a challenge that we all face, you know, just think of the promo. That's usually the best, the best way to get yourself out of a bit of a kind of you know, creative conundrum. Write the promo.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

All right, I'd love to get to some quick fire questions. What is your favorite reality TV show to watch?

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Married First Sight.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

What was the last TV show you watched?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Your friends and neighbours.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Who is the most famous person you've met through working in TV?

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Rob Stewart.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

What is your dream show to work on?

SPEAKER_00 47:48

I'd love to make something like Euphoria. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Okay, scripted. What show do you wish you created?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Mary First.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Best location you've been to for work.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

New York.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

What cancelled TV show needs to make a comeback?

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Balls of steel. Look it up.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

You'll it's have you ever been on TV and what were you on?

SPEAKER_00 48:10

I've appeared in the background of various toasts of mine, but I've never had it. I'm about speaking wrong.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

If you could be on any reality TV show, what would you be on?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Real Housewives.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

If you could have dinner with any celebrity dead or alive, who would it be?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

John Ham.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Thank you so much. You have had such an amazing career. I think it's so inspiring. And I think it's incredible to see basically how you've done so many roles, worked in so many different aspects of television. So, I mean, without sounding condescending, like you really know your stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

You're very kind to say that. Thank you. But I continue to learn every day that I come into come into work. I really do.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

I will let you go because you're obviously very busy, but um, I really appreciate your time. And I think people are really gonna love hearing all your background stories. This is beyond reality.